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SHEPHERD0886

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Old and tryng to be wise but sometimes failing
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Memorials and Funerals - Too Little Too Late

Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:56 AM EDT
beliefs, funerals, monuments, ideologies, life-and-priorities
By shepherd0886
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Today's news of late seems filled with articles that talk about holding memorials or vigils for those who have been taken from us violently or at too early an age. We fuss and fight over where to place our graven images and halls of worship. Often such anger and emotion leads to more violence and irrational behavior in much the same way that a questionable call leads to a bench clearing brawl at the ball park. Somehow we just cannot accept that the reasons for our losses are sometimes the result of failures on our part rather than our opposition in life simply being better and more prepared than we were. My point is simply this. By the time that we get to the point of holding a candlelight vigil for someone it is already too late for them and for us. Our chance to 'make a difference' passed long ago. Arguing over where to place a memorial or a place of reverence to one God or another is really rather pointless because our chances to put such religious ideologies behind us and unite in the commonality and brotherhood of mankind has long passed. In fact the mere perpetuation of such differences in beliefs serves only to incite even more bitterness towards each other rather than bring us closer together as human beings.

As a child growing up I used to ask my parents why people had such elaborate funerals and ornate burial places. After all, they were dead and gone right? They were already in a better place according to our accepted beliefs at the time. Such services and ceremonies just seemed to me to be more of an elaborate appology to their memory for not having been there for them in life. Their answer was simply that for most people such funereal activities were primarily for the benefit of the living. Merely an excuse to get together and remember the past and try and convince other family members and friends just how close they were to the deceased or for those closest to the one being honored it served to highlight their importance in the family and their community and thus enhance their status with the surviving family members and circle of friends. This answer made a lot of sense to me because in my limited life experience at the time dead meant that you no longer had any contact with the mortal world and were well past carring what went on here.

As a result my parents opted for simple cremation with no service of any kind. Any rememberances in their behalf were to be made in their name to a favorite charity. As for me, I have elected the same. For my wife however I did what I felt that she would have wanted and had a normal but small funeral with a regular burial. This was only because she never really quite agreed with me and my parents on this topic so I had to sort of 'second guess' what she would have liked. Losing her as I did has probably had more to do with cementing this belief in my mind than anything else. In every way I look back over our years together and realize that I could have been a much better husband in many ways. Therefore when I see or hear of how others react to the loss of loved or highly respected ones in their lives I wonder if perhaps they feel the same sort of guilt and remorse that bothers me. I now try belatedly to be more of a father to my two sons without interfering in their lives. The old song "The Cat's In the Cradle and the Silver Spoons" comes to mind and the lyrics hold a particular meaning for me now.

When it came to giant religious edifices and monuments my father used to remark that it was a bit like an animal in the wild marking its territory and signifying its power and influence in the area. In the Christian faiths we say that we should not bow down to graven images yet we do it every day by erecting enormous buildings and worshiping over religious icons and artifacts as if they in and of themselves hold some mystical power over our lives simply because someone says that they have been in some way consecrated by our God. In my mind they are nothing more than symbols to help those who are unable to believe on faith alone to have something tangeable to cling to rather like a favorite blanket or pacifier to a small child.

My point in all of this is that we often become so wrapped up in and involved with the trappings of our lives and our beliefs and ideals that we sometimes forget our priorities. The time to love and respect our parents is while they are with us. Support them and let them know how much they mean to you now rather than wallow in regret after they have passed. If they have not been the best of parents the time to forgive them is now and try and show your maturity by understandeing why they failed in their efforts. The same is true of your children. Think of them and be there for them as much as you possibly can because any number of life events could take you from them or them from you in the blink of an eye. As for your religious beliefs you must try your best to avoid hypocrisy and have sense enough to recognize and not be led astray by unscrupulous persons masquerading as God's representatives who only seek to glorify, empower, and enrich themselves at our expense. They can and do cause us to do things that often are contrary to the very religion to which we profess to belong. When someone starts talking about "going on a crusade" against this or that it should cause us all to look very closely at what is behind it and just what we are expected to do in its behalf. When you are called upon to "take up your sword of redemption and smite the evil" just make sure that the sword in question is purely metaphoric and not real.

Memorials and funerals are fine for honoring and remembering one who has passed from the mortal world or for perpetuating certain beliefs and ideals. It often makes us, the living, somehow feel better about ourselves. However they cross the line when they become enormous, elaborate, and burdensome 'things' which require constant attention and effort that detracts from our primary goal of living our lives and being there for the living and for those closest to us and most in need of our attention and support. Excessive mourning for lost loved ones or excessive devotion to a particular set of ideals, political, social, or religious, detracts from our primary mission in life. That is to be there for and support our family and loved ones and to grow and develop as souls by learning from the trials and tribulations of life. When former President Kennedy made the statment "ask not what your country can do for you but rather what you can do for your country" that was perhaps better stated by replacing the words 'your country' with the simple word 'life.'

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  • Groups: Grief Support and Tributes, In Memoriam
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  • Public Discussion (21)
shepherd0886

Sometimes the hardest and bitterest lessons in life are the ones about which we can no longer make a difference. The deed is done and the consequences are etched in stone for perpetuity. I find that now I try and remember that when making life's little choices and decisions. Even then I still make mistakes as do we all but it is the trying that makes the difference and your motivation that determines your forgiveness in the end. There is a saying that goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." I think that is perhaps a rather harsh assessment of the human condition. The fact that we are human means that 'mistakes' are inevitable. I think that our judgment over such mistakes is ameliorated by what our intentions were when we made them.

A mistake made with evil intent is judged much more harshly than one made out of loving and caring intent. In either case, we will be our own judges in the end as we are confronted with our life choices. Living our lives by the good old "Golden Rule" is one way to try and insure that our own self judgement is not so harsh.

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:10 PM EDT
ann in Texas

Beautifully written, shep. I agree with pretty much everything that you've said.

Their answer was simply that for most people such funereal activities were primarily for the benefit of the living.

As my mother in law was dying in March, I thought a lot about the grief process, and things people did to cope. I think that the act of prayer is a salve for many. I saw the family demand more tests from the staff, grasp at the idea that a wonder drug could reverse affects of a failing body. I saw strangers bonding with other strangers in the ICU waiting room. I saw my BIL call down a specialist in frustration when the man basically said everything that could be done had been done. And I saw a family just fall apart at losing a wife, mom, grandmother, MIL. Very very difficult.

To your point about the acts of funeral and memorial services, it is not only religion, but culture and societal "norms" that dictate why we gather to "celebrate" a life. Afterward people want to help, so they bring casseroles :)

Death makes us reflect and re-asses. Since my MIL's death I've made a point to tell people regularly that I love and care for them. People aren't really sure how to react, and I've grown used to the reactions. But literally each day is a gift, and life can end at any time. The thought of someone not knowing how special they are to me, because I didn't express those feelings, would likely haunt me more than their passing.

And I've always wanted to just donate my body to science upon my death. Take any organs that can help someone else then have the vultures have their way with me in a body farm. My soul will already be free :)

I do think it's important for us to accept that people cope in different ways (i.e. some people feel closer (and better) to a loved one that is passed when they visit the cemetery.) This is where grace comes in. What may be the right way for me to mourn and move on can be frowned upon or judged by others that are hurting. People's feelings and fragility come to the surface. I've been there.

Clipping to Grief Support and Tributes group. (As an aside, you sound very reflective in this piece. It sounds like your former wife is very much on your mind. I hope you are all right. Hugs to you, friend.)

  • 3 votes
Reply#2 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:08 PM EDT
shepherd0886

Thank you ann. Yes she is still on my mind quite a bit. Not so much in mourning as for what she taught me about a loving relationship in life. I have moved on in so much as I am 'courting' another person of interest. However the lessons I learned and the experiences that I had with my late wife will never be far from my mind. Thanks to her and our relationship I have learned about unconditional love with no strings attached.

If my new love interest reciprocates then she will be the beneficiary of what I have learned. At this point in my life I don't have a lot of time to waste so she will get all that I can give emotionally, spiritually, and physically from the very start and as long as she wants to remain with me. As the old song lyric goes "We'll sing in the sunshine.....We'll laugh every day.....etc. etc." LOL The best part is that I go from being very alone and disengaged to having another son, two daughters, and a grandson. That should be enough stimulation to keep me from 'drying up' too quickly. :=))

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 9:05 PM EDT
Reply
Dr Know

My father was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Few people came to visit him in the hospital. Even fewer came to visit him at home when he was in hospice care.

The funeral was well attended by all his "friends" all posturing to show how much better a friend they were than the person they were talking to.

Aftewards, I went to the RV place where he had his travel rig stored to get it. The people there apologized for not coming to the funeral. They were one of the few that visited him near the end.

I told them "He knew you cared more than most of his family and friends. You were there while he was alive. The rest waited until he was dead and gone to 'visit'".

The buddhist temple I attend has a party to celebrate their life. They repeat this at the 100 day anniversary and yearly. The body is considered to be clothes for the soul just like clothes for your body. Temporary.

  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:36 PM EDT
shepherd0886

Thank you for your comment Dr Know. It is interesting that you attend a Buddhist temple. I have numerous friends who are of the Buddhist faith and, even though I describe myself as an Agnostic, they tell me with sometimes a bit of a smile on their faces that my ideology sounds very much like the Buddhist religion. I am not sure if they are 'putting me on' a bit or what but it is rather interesting. Usually I smile back at them and reply that I am simply too much of a carnivore to be Buddhist. LOL

I will say that in many cases though those who just cannot let go of the deceased are examples of the other extreme. These people cared so deeply or were so heavily dependent upon the one passed that they simply go into denial. For them such elaborate services and expensive burial accouterments and facilities perhaps serve to preserve some sort of a connection to the one passed. In either case such elaborate demonstrations and memorials are a colossal waste of time and money and in the later case down right unhealthy for the ones so afflicted.

Sadly what was once just a simple service with reasonable costs and fees which permitted the interment of the deceased in a decent but efficient manner has now become an industry with more choices than the cereal aisle at the grocery store. Also the costs of such arrangements have gone through the roof and now require most people to arrange for financing just to be buried. That is why I have prearranged my burial and prepaid for everything. I will simply be cremated, put in a Folgers coffee can, and quietly tucked under the sod right above my first wife. Simple, clean, efficient, and my sons and other survivors won't have to worry about a thing.

  • 2 votes
#3.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 9:28 PM EDT
Dr Know

Ah! Stereotypes... The monks at the temples I go to are NOT vegetarian. There are meats they will not eat such as elephant, horse or tiger meat. BUT, trust me, they like Whoppers!!! (with cheese and LARGE fries).

Here are the precepts (or commandments, if you will) for a lay person

1) Don't murder

2) Don't take anything not freely given (steal or "finders keepers")

3) Don't commit adultery

4) Don't lie or gossip

5) Don't use anything that alters your ability to control your mind.

If you agree to those, welcome to being a Buddhist.

Buddha himself said to question EVERYTHING no matter the source and only use what makes sense to YOU. Each person is a different form of "Buddhism".

The funeral services, the casket, all the hystrionics are for the survivors. The dead will not change from them. They are DEAD.

    #3.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:51 PM EDT
    Reply
    3rdtime

    Don't waste the roses on the coffin.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#4 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:01 PM EDT
    LifeTravler

    I can relate to your article shep in a huge sense. I speak for a few people when I say this. If you can't come to see me while I'm alive, don't bother to come see me once I'm dead.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#5 - Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:54 PM EDT
    shepherd0886

    ann in Texas made a good point in her comment #2. She mentioned that family and friends would come to show support and 'bring casseroles' to help the family in mouring. For the most part that was typical in small communities. When one of their number passed they pulled together to support the surviving family members and help them so as to preserve the strength of the community. Sometimes, as in the case of a male member passing, they would even pitch in and help with the upkeep of their farms until the family could recover enough to be self sufficient. However that was a different time and the people then had a different mind set.

    Today we are all about ourselves. It is really rather rare that any of us will go out of our way to help another in such cases. We just assume that they had made prior arrangements and had proper insurance and therefore don't need any help or support. The community spirit has been replaced with 'financial planning' and insurance. It is far easier for us to assume that those suffering will be taken care of without our help. So we send flowers, dress up one evening, attend a brief service, sign the guest book, and then go home and forget about it.

    My late father often remarked that what we do today would not amount to a hill of beans in 50 or 100 years. That is because he and his contemporaries fought the Germans and the Japanese in World War II only to survive to see both of those countries become our staunchest allies a mere 65 years later. From their perspective all of the monuments to past wars are more like monuments to human stupidity than to the men and women who died in such conflicts because all who die in war die in vain. The monuments were erected purportedly so that we would not forget the terror and stupidity of war yet we do it over and over again. Obviously such monuments are not doing what they are intended to do.

    Similarly elaborate funeral ceremonies and very expensive and decorative burial crypts in no way serve to maintain any sort of connection with the deceased. The great Houdini had arranged with his wife that upon his death he promised to make every effort to contact her in some way. The spiritual charlatans of the day swarmed around her but none were able to produce the prearranged message that she was to receive. In the end she concluded that once we pass our spirits move on. They no longer have business here in the mortal world.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#6 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:06 PM EDT
    LifeTravler

    That's some pretty profound thoughts, Shep, and I agree with all of them. Life is so different today than what it used to be. People in this day and age can be so uncaring, BUT there are still many out here who do care. It takes work to care, and so many are not willing to do that work. I can't help myself. I'm one of the ones that care.

      Reply#7 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 2:26 PM EDT
      Broliver Stagnasty

      Good Article, eloquently stated.

      I substantially agree with a lot of your points, but do have a slightly different perspective. In post # 6 you state:

      When one of their number passed they pulled together to support the surviving family members and help them so as to preserve the strength of the community. Sometimes, as in the case of a male member passing, they would even pitch in and help with the upkeep of their farms until the family could recover enough to be self sufficient. However that was a different time and the people then had a different mind set.

      The communities of today are different not because they wish to be, but because that is the way that the members of the community feel they need to be to survive. The reasons for these changes are manifold, but the outcome is less of a sense of community within a local sphere. But we still have communities, they look different and are not so much a gathering of people physically.

      Also, I think that your view on why people attend funerals is somewhat jaded. You are right in the observation that funerals are not so much for the benefit of the dead as the living, but to mark all attendees of the funeral as merely trying to assert their place in the pecking order is not correct (apologies in advance if that is not what you meant). People have many reasons for attending funerals and funerals do serve many purposes. They serve as a demarcation of someones passing, they provide the members of the family of the deceased with a show of support, they help the normal grieving process to occur.....

      Your reasons for attending a funeral might be different than those of the person next to you, but you are there.

      Regards,

      B.S.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#8 - Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:30 AM EDT
      shepherd0886

      Excellent points Broliver. I stated my parent's attitudes and beliefs and, to some extent, mine as well. My family dynamic is most certainly unique and does not represent any kind of 'norm.' For example in some societies it is the practice to hold a celebratory wake so as to send off the deceased's spirit in good cheer.

      Most recently in caring for and observing my mother I have noticed that she maintains a kind of denial ragarding the passing of my wife and of my father. She just cannot associate their deaths with reality. I wonder if perhaps that would be different if we had held elaborate funeral services for them both. Would it have made a difference in her mind? Who knows. We had a very elaborate funeral service for her mother but she still occasionally thinks that her mother is still with us. Her dementia is such that I am not sure if it would have made any kind of difference at all.

      That is partly why I wrote this article. I wanted to see some discussion and hear some other points of view on this matter. You are correct in your assessment of my attitude as being a bit "jaded." Even I see it that way as well but I also see all of the hypocritical behavior of those around me and that only tends to reinforce my attitudes in many ways. I have often said that I dislike for anyone to pigeon hole other people and assume that all of a given stripe are the same yet here I am doing the very thing that I say that I dislike. Hmmm. So in some way that makes me just as hypocritical as those I am trying to criticize. :=((

      There was a lady on the vine with whom I had a brief interaction and she had experienced a 'near death' event. As a result she has some very interesting perspectives on a number of things. One that I particularly remember is that we are judged not so much on our actions and behaviors but on the intent we have that motivates those actions and behaviors. If there is no malice and only good in our hearts then even if we make a mistake here and there we are judged less harshly for it. So with that I am coming to believe that no two people are motivated by the same things. As you point out each have their own reasons and needs for attending funeral and memorial services. I often hear the term "closure" and that may be a very good description for it.

      However all of that being said I still feel that overly lavish and elaborate ceremonies are a total waste of time and money. At some point one wonders if simple closure has been overridden by image building and self agrandizement on the part of the living. The same can be said of hugely expensive wedding ceremonies. In some cases a wedding can cost as much as a downpayment on a very nice house so it is just money poorly spent as I see it. Then again each person has their own feelings about such things and I certainly should not expect them to totally agree with me. I must be careful not to sound hypocritical again. LOL After all my 'opinions' are of no more value than those of someone else. They apply only to me and those close to me but I am open to change. That is why I wrote this article and my attitudes have already softened a bit. :=))

      • 2 votes
      #8.1 - Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:14 AM EDT
      Broliver Stagnasty

      shepard said:

      I still feel that overly lavish and elaborate ceremonies are a total waste of time and money.

      I am with you there. If they must put me in a can, then they should grind me up and make some cat food out of me.

      B.S.

      • 1 vote
      #8.2 - Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:07 AM EDT
      Reply
      Dr Know

      The practice of embalming was invented during the Civil War (War Between the States). It was done only so the body would be preserved enough for open casket burials after the long journey from the remote battlefield where the soldier died to the home town. Today there is refrigeration that relegates this practice to obscurity but some people are still fooled into paying for it.

      "6 feet under" was chosen for a grave depth because that was the distance that prevented scavengers from digging up a decaying corpse.

      Now one must have a "vault" for the casket to be placed in. Why? Because the pressure of the dirt eventually collapses that device for your "eternal repose". Why do we pretend to "preserve" the dead body? In some places "bunking" (like bunk beds) has to be done because of limited space. There are even cemeteries where the "resident" is evicted in preference to someone whose family will provide "eternal care". Once that new family ceases to pay up, a new resident will take over "occupancy".

      • 1 vote
      Reply#9 - Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:08 PM EDT
      shepherd0886

      Dr Know your comment #9 offers some insight as to why I tend to be so cynical about such practices. The elaborate practice of Mortuary Science was born out of necessity during a time of great need. People wanted desperately to have one more sight of their loved one before commiting them to their eternal rest. This demonstrated that a demand for such services existed and it wasn't long before there were those who decided to capitalize on this demand.

      Even when the original wide spread need for this practice ended as we returned to a more normal peace time existence those who had become involved in this business found that they could not only perpetuate the practice but grow and develop it into a very lucrative enterprise. They quickly learned to prey upon the inherent guilt issues that people have when loved ones pass and convince them that they owed such elaborate services to the corpse as a kind of recompense for perhaps not being so attentive in life. They also found that very wealthy and prominent families had an image to maintain even in death so they were able to create more and more expensive and garish ceremonies and burial accoutrements designed to impress and amaze others.

      In the whole of the animal kingdom we are the only known species who ponders the possiblitiy of an afterlife and go to such extremes to preserve and honor our deceased. As I see it our mortal remains are nothing more than a shell in which our soul lived during its brief learning experience in this life. Sort of like the lifeless carcass that some species of locusts leave stuck to the sides of trees as they morph into their next stage of life. One might think of this life as a 'larval stage' that we must pass through and in death we exit our pupa and move on to our next life phase.

      So if that is indeed the case we are simply being tricked and goaded into spending a lot of time and money and dedicating large plots of land to the preservation of empty carcasses. Grief is normal and mourning is necessary for us to come to terms with the passing of a loved one. However whenever these processes become so commercialized and our guilt and sorrow are played like a cheap fiddle in order to get us to spend huge amounts of money to ameliorate them I tend to become very cynical. The Egyptians were perhaps the masters of this practice and we seem bent on following their example in the futile belief that we maintain some sort of connection to our physical body once our soul has departed from it.

      As I said before it is far more desirable to show your love and respect for your loved ones before their demise. Once they are gone they have more important things to deal with I am quite sure. Life is kind of like a play. You view it and enjoy the story it tells as it unfolds but once the final curtain closes that play is then relegated to our memory and there are no encore performances. Variations of that same play may recur but the physical players will be different. Perhaps our grand children or great grand children will complete the cast in the next performance.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#10 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:55 AM EDT
      Dr Know

      Funeral Directors are leeches on society.

      My uncle made a very lucrative living being one. The very same parlor he worked at tried to rip us off when my father died. They came to us and suggested that we donate the vast majority of the flowers sent (by very guilty individuals - there were many of them and their guilt was BIG) to an orphanage. Then they tried to bill us $100 for the limo "used to deliver the flowers to the cemetary".

      My father specifically requested that NO Christian symbols be used at his funeral or burial. They insisted that a cross be on his casket. We did not see it until the casket was closed...

      • 1 vote
      Reply#11 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:12 PM EDT
      ann in Texas

      My uncle made a very lucrative living being one. The very same parlor he worked at tried to rip us off when my father died. They came to us and suggested that we donate the vast majority of the flowers sent (by very guilty individuals - there were many of them and their guilt was BIG) to an orphanage. Then they tried to bill us $100 for the limo "used to deliver the flowers to the cemetary".

      Dr Know, this is horrible. I'm so sorry. The last day we were gathered in the ICU saying goodbye to my Mother in Law, an elder from her church stopped by. He asked one of the sons if this experience "would bring Darrell (her husband) to finally walk with the Lord." I couldn't believe it.

      #10, shep, I agree. To this:

      However whenever these processes become so commercialized and our guilt and sorrow are played like a cheap fiddle in order to get us to spend huge amounts of money to ameliorate them I tend to become very cynical.

      You do know that Wal Mart is now selling caskets? Check out this one, made in the USA and available for financing!

      http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pieta-and-Last-Supper-Steel-Casket/12569362

      It's sick.

      • 1 vote
      #11.1 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:51 PM EDT
      shepherd0886

      Alas I found this out after I had already spent $6000.00 on a casket for my wife when she passed. I was one of those procrastinators in this particular arena simply because I didn't want to believe that anyone would go before me except for my parents and their arrangements were already made in advence. So I spent the equivalent of a good used car to send my wife off. You see I felt a substantial level of guilt and remorse because I felt that I could have been a better husband. It has taken me some time to realize that I did all that I could and more than most in our given circumstance. Both her family and mine agree to that and they have encouraged me to "let it go."

      • 1 vote
      #11.2 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:07 PM EDT
      ann in Texas

      You see I felt a substantial level of guilt and remorse because I felt that I could have been a better husband. It has taken me some time to realize that I did all that I could and more than most in our given circumstance. Both her family and mine agree to that and they have encouraged me to "let it go."

      From your past posts I know how attentive you were to her, shep. And that y'all shared very deep love. Sometimes guilt and remorse stay with us a while but we are the ones that ultimately choose to move past it, and I hope you'll keep looking forward. Some days baby steps are all that we can manage and that is okay :) It's wonderful that both families are supportive of you.

      • 1 vote
      #11.3 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:56 PM EDT
      Reply
      Dog_Blue

      There seems to be a somewhat new alternative for our end of life dispatch. A pressurized cylinder that allows the circulation of warmed potassium hydroxide. Essentially digests the flesh and bones leaving behind al alkaline yellow syrup with a suspension of carbonates. The carbonates can be filtered out for internment. It supposedly is a relatively inexpensive solution (no pun intended). I think it might be acceptable to me.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#12 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
      shepherd0886

      Well the fellow who played Scotty on the old Star Trek series elected to be cremated and his remains launched into space so your alternative is no less viable. Simply put the disposal of the physical remains is nothing more than a sanitation issue and as long as they are safely disposed of everyone is happy. Like my parents before me I have elected cremation and my ashes are to be placed in a large size Folger's coffee can (my favorite brew) and gently placed on top of my late wife's casket. All of my arrangements have been made and are paid for so my sons will only have to supervise the event.

      • 1 vote
      #12.1 - Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:24 PM EDT
      Reply
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